Casein broken down by fermentaion?

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Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby jpt120 on Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:34 pm

Hi all,

Anyone know if casein is broken down by fermentation? Obviously lactose is but I've always wondered whether casein is also broken down or remains in tact?

Thanks!
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Re: Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby MDee on Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:57 am

Yes it does...but its gonna take a while and be very fermented. I've fermented raw milk (soured) for a few weeks at room temp or warmer and drank it (well some of it). Everything ferments given enough time. However if you are looking for the benefits of milk without the large amount of protein in it (casein) I would look at a different food source.
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Re: Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby jpt120 on Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:00 pm

Thanks MDEE.

Do you also know if whey contains casein and/ or lactose? I knew I had antoher question but forgot about this one. Please let me know if you have a moment.

Thanks again-
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Re: Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby MDee on Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:20 pm

I'm not sure I understand your question...casein and whey are both proteins in milk, lactose is the dissacharide sugar in milk. I am not aware of any distinction as to whether these are in the cream or non cream portion (raw milk). Since most milk is homogenized many people don't even realize milk naturally separates. Casein is what causes "curds" to form when the milk sours. (those curds are cheese) If you sour long enough the curds will break down (so the casein) has broken down as well. Only ferment RAW MILK...in case you didn't know.

Ask your question again if this doesn't clear up your understanding, I apologize I didn't understand.
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Re: Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby jpt120 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:19 pm

Hey MDee,

What I am trying to avoid is casein. I have two situations; one being the desire to avoid casein but my wife doesnot want to give up her frothy milk kefir. You answer that first question. But a separate casein question has to do with taking whey protein powder. I like taking whey protein powder because it is cheaper than rice protein powder. However, unlike my wife who refuses to give up her milk kefir (I surmise from your previous answer that we do not ferment the milk kefir long enough to break down casein) I do desire to avoid casein at any cost (at least for a while). So, if whey contains casein, I want to avoid it. I've gotten mixed info on the web; that whey and casein are one in the same. However, I've also found info that says whey is not casein, that casein is a separate protein, and that casein separates from whey. In that case, I am safe taking whey.

Hence my confusion. Hopefully this is a clearer explanation of where I am going with this. If this is clear, please let me know your thoughts.

Also, now you have me curious on raw vs. homogenized. I thought raw was simply a superior option, but homogenized was an ok second option. Since you say only ferment raw milk, that means I should not ferment non-raw milk. But I have been. Can you please explain why non-raw milk should never be fermented? I've been trying to find non-milk alternatives but nothing seems to ferment as well as milk. But its not raw milk.

Thanks so much MDee, I really appreciate your time!
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Re: Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby MDee on Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:53 pm

whey and casein are separate proteins. You know I would honestly bet you are safe with the whey protein powder...here is why. When cheese is made...the manufacturer causes the casein to coagulate into "curds" usually by adding acid of some kind to the milk. (mozarella, cheddar, american, etc). In natural souring of milk bacteria creates lactic acid which causes this effect. Anyway at this point the milk that has had the acid added to it (note it has not been homogenized) is then separated into "curds and whey(watery)". The curds are separated and make cheese....the whey was usually thrown away, until they realized they could dry it into a powder and add it to everything from protein shakes to cheetos.

Now I'm not certain...I don't have a lab to be certain...but I do believe that all the casein coagulates into the curds and so there should not be any in "whey protein". If there is any casein it would be very minimal, but most likely none.

Its sad that this information isn't available...but food science focuses on profitable (to business) information, simple as that.

Can you ferment "pasteurized and homogenized" milk? Technically yes...very controlled fermentation think of making yogurt. In this instance you add or inoculate the milk with what you want then incubate it until it is at the point of microbe "ecosystem" that you desire. Then you stop everything at that spot (refrigeration) and consume it. Kefir has more forgiveness than yogurt but the same thing applies.

Now if you just left out a glass of milk in warm temperature...if would ferment but it would go "bad" and not be palatable, in fact it would be dangerous. All of the food poising we hear about comes from cooked food that has fermented and literally does become toxic to us, undigestable plant fiber fermented makes us sick. Of course we should know not to eat it since it is not appealing in smell and taste if we ignore our sense of smell.

Think of botulism...cooked food in a can/bottle that isn't sealed correctly, and it is very dangerous. Yet we know of many raw fruit and vegetable "fermented foods". Why the difference...well there isn't any in depth scientific study (not profitable to business/gov) but it comes down to the fact cooked protein and fat are chemically changed (this is scientifically proven) or "denatured" so that they require different microbes to break them down and there is toxic by products to that break down.

Why does say yogurt work then...because you are manipulating by inoculating the milk with bacteria to only eat the lactose sugar (not very changed by heat or other processing) and as soon as that is done the process is stopped. But if you left milk out everything in the milk begins to break down, lactose, proteins and fats...but they aren't raw, and they aren't the same.

Make sense?
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Re: Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby jpt120 on Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:52 pm

MDee,

Sure does- Great info here thanks very much!
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Re: Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby Denise on Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:48 am

The following (not green) is from my post that is a reply to the "Casein" post, which asks how casein is affected by fermentation.

(There is a very good reply posted at the "Casein" post, in dairy ferments, that might be very helpful to you. It is about the different animal's casein digestability.)

From Klaire Labs catalog: "Lactobacillus casei: A hardy, adaptive transient species. Makes many proline-specific peptidases enhancing casein, casein-derived polypeptide, and gluten breakdown...."

GI ProHealth has a yogurt culture starter that has L-casei in it. (These are the 3 probiotics in the starter: Combination Formula including L. Bulgaricus, S. Thermophilus and L. Casei.) I contacted GI ProHealth to learn if the L-casei helps to break down the casein. This is their reply, in quotes and italics:

"Hi Denise,

Yes the L Casei does help to break down casein. "

Here is the link for the starter: http://www.giprohealth.com/giprostart.aspx

I also do a 24 hour fermentation, using raw goat milk, to help the breakdown.

If interested in a lactose free yogurt, see my posts, "How to Make Lactose Free Yogurt" and "Health Benefits of Lactose Free Yogurt".
Last edited by Denise on Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fermentation Blessings!
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Re: Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby Denise on Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:51 pm

This is some information that I obtained by e-mailing Well Wisdom about their biologically active, undenatured whey protein "Renew Pro". I have found that companies are very eager to share information with consumers. I would encourage you to contact the company for the whey protein you are interested in to find the content of casein and/or lactose. Well Wisdom answers are following, in quotes and red type:

"Hello Denise,

The key ingredient in RenewPro is our Proserum native whey protein concentrate. Proserum contains 7% lactose which means that there is actually 0.3g lactose per 5 gram serving of RenewPro. However, due to FDA labeling guidelines, since the sugar amount is less than 0.5g it needed to be rounded down to 0. Carbohydrates on the other hand have to be listed to the nearest 0.1g increment and that is why they are listed at the 0.3g amount. Please take this information into account to avoid confusion in the future.

Sincerely,
Kade Brittain
Wisdom Proteins, Inc"


"Hello Denise,

Thank you for your questions. Regarding casein in whey, all whey protein and colostrum products contain varying amounts of casein. Lab analysis of our native whey protein verifies that our whey contains less than 1% non-denatured casein.

Sincerely,
Kade Brittain
Operations Manager
Wisdom Proteins, Inc"
Fermentation Blessings!
Denise
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Re: Casein broken down by fermentaion?

Postby Denise on Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:06 pm

In case you would like to try it, the GI ProHealth Culture Starter can be used for nut milks. The starter is free of dairy; very clear instructions are given on the website:

http://www.giprohealth.com/giprostart.aspx
Fermentation Blessings!
Denise
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