odd question, I guess

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odd question, I guess

Postby Aliyanna on Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:55 am

I have been doing lots of ferments to help heal my family's guts. They get lots of kefir, water and coconut milk (with milk kefir grains) coconut yogurt (using culturelle as my starter and konjac as my thickener.) I make gluten free sourdough with teff and kefir, I ferment veggies and fruits and we are still having issues.

Question: What does all this lactic acid do? Culturelle is supposed to kill bacteria and work on the yeast. That is why I chose it as my culture. Besides all this they are getting lots of grapefruit seed extract to kill the yeast. Any thoughts or suggestions. I am also giving larch extract. Am about at my wits end.
tia
Aliyanna
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Re: odd question, I guess

Postby Gutted on Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:03 am

Aliyanna wrote:I have been doing lots of ferments to help heal my family's guts. They get lots of kefir, water and coconut milk (with milk kefir grains) coconut yogurt (using culturelle as my starter and konjac as my thickener.) I make gluten free sourdough with teff and kefir, I ferment veggies and fruits and we are still having issues.

Question: What does all this lactic acid do? Culturelle is supposed to kill bacteria and work on the yeast. That is why I chose it as my culture. Besides all this they are getting lots of grapefruit seed extract to kill the yeast. Any thoughts or suggestions. I am also giving larch extract. Am about at my wits end.
tia
Aliyanna

lactic acid in high concentrations provides an environment which kills most types of bacteria. Sauerkraut ph will lower to a level which is not hospitable to most bacteria and yeasts.

Culturelle is rather overrated in my experience. I tried it a long time back to make yoghurt and used it for quite a long time and didn't notice any improvement. The claims made for it, including reducing the permeability of the gut are just claims and in my experience are not justified. There are far better bacteria than Culturelle/Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG for fighting yeast and sealing the gut if hyper permeability is a problem.

Bacteria naturally compete with one another and they produce Bactericides to kill off competing bacteria. Adapting and changing according to the terrain so they can survive. It's called survival of the fittest, the giant balancing act which is life.

The problem that most people seem to make when trying to eliminate yeasts and infections are that the yeasts and bacteria can create biofilms which protect them from other bacteria and any substance which threatens them. Biofilms are protective communities of bacteria, yeasts and fungi which work together and benefit one another. They are like a protective dome over them that allows in the nutrients that they want and filters out anything that the don't want. Biofilms and the organisms inside are highly adaptive, they can adapt very quickly to virtually any substance that threatens them. Changing the biofilm if something gets through so that it is filtered out.

Organisms inside a biofilm are notoriously difficult to destroy. The biofilm needs to be destroyed/broken up to enable anything to attack the organisms. Other bacteria are the best bet but only after the biofilm has been removed. Find some antagonistic bacteria, break down the biofilm using enzymes and then use the bacteria for a fight to the death.

The soil based organisms can be very useful at destroying yeasts and fungus. Some of the bacillus bacteria strains are used commercially to prevent fungi growth on fruit.

Be aware of what some yeasts can do, they can be very damaging when they form hyphae because they can penetrate through the digestive system wall and move to other areas of the body.

I suggest that you investigate biofilms because that is likely why you aren't getting very far.
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Re: odd question, I guess

Postby Gutted on Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:22 am

Have you ever had your well water tested to rule it out as the source of your problems?
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Re: odd question, I guess

Postby Aliyanna on Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:07 pm

Ok. Have heard of biofilm protocol. My problem with it is the way the chelator is used. We used the Cutler protocol for heavy metals and my understanding is that it needs to be used in a very different way than it is being used in the biofilm protocol. I don't understand what it is being used for...or why...but am reticent about using it in the fashion that the biofilm protocol does....I wish there was a sub for it....would be willing to try.

The soil type bacteria you are talking about is a streptococcus, isn't it? As in 3lac? Are there others? I am not familiar with them, but
I sure don't know all there is to know!!! lol

I do appreciate you taking time to post on the forum to answer my questions....I am really frustrated....we have been at trying to clear up this mess for over 10 years...and still fighting it.
thanks
Aliyanna
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Re: odd question, I guess

Postby Gutted on Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:10 pm

Biofilms are created by bacteria and fungi, it's not really anything to do with a protocol, that is just what someone came up with as one way to deal with it. Whether it's successful is another matter.

You say that you have been fighting it for 10 years....it could be 20 years if you have not beaten it so far. It could be 30 years and so on and so on. There is one reason why you have been unable to beat it and you can guess what that reason is.

Chelation is probably used to attempt to remove minerals to try and attempt to prevent the biofilm from being re-built. Biofilms make use of Calcium, magnesium, iron, possibly some other minerals and polyunsaturated fats but not saturated fats!

Here is a very good article on Organism biofilms and it should really open your eyes so you can understand why you have had so much difficulty and probably spent so much time and money attempting to defeat it without being 100% successful. Read the part on persister cells and you will understand why all your efforts have been in vain up until now. After reading it I think that you know that if you ignore biofilms you will probably never beat it because they are designed to protect organisms and ensure that they survive.
http://bacteriality.com/2008/05/26/biofilm/

Soil based bacteria you have seen me mention on this forum before. You did ask where you could get Bacillus Subtilis. Stretococcus isn't a SB bacteria to my knowledge. Bacillus Coagulans is another but these alone are not going to have much effect on bacteria protected by a biofilm. B. Subtilis can produce protein digesting enzymes so might help a little against a biofilm but probably not enough on it's own.

Some people use Serrapeptase, Lumbrokinase and Nattokinase (as in Natto) to help break up biofilms. There are supplements that are meant to break them up but it's getting them to the problem area rather than having them used up in the wrong place.

Knowing exactly where the problem lies might help you. Use all the clues that your body provides. Take a look at iridology to see if it gives any useful information. It should give information on aspects of the digestive system and nervous systems and any problems or weak spots that might need some help. Get an Iris chart by Bernard Jensen because those are the most complete. Google images have some. A magnifying glass x3 or x4 placed upon a mirror can help if looking at your own iris, use daylight to contract the pupil and take a look.
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Re: odd question, I guess

Postby Aliyanna on Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:12 pm

I do remember asking about the type and you mentioning it. Sorry with 3 autistic kids who are on strict diets and trying to do it on the cheap and a husband who is not supportive and is a lot of other things...my mind sometimes goes blank.

Most of the pros that have the one you mention are very very expensive. There are 8 of us in the family and we all have similar gut issues....

As to chelation, Andy Cutler says that heavy metals are an issue in and of themselves and cause the problems with or without biofilm.
If you read his books, you will understand the rest of the story. We have been following that protocol for some time...but the yeast as with many autistic kiddos is terrible. It is trying to find the solutions to these issues...and on a limited budget. That is why we are trying so hard to include more fermented foods.
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Re: odd question, I guess

Postby bluehorserefuge on Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:17 pm

strange, reading these old threads. Very informative, but sad. I wonder how Aliyanna is now, and her kids. I can't imagine how hard it must be to do fermentation with an unsupportive partner, because it all seems to need time, patience, and a supportive atmosphere where it can be done. There's always some experimentation involved, and failures happen. My partner is more or less supportive, but when something like yoghurt goes wrong I still get an earful for wasting "even a couple of spoonfuls" to make the starter.
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