Suggestions needed for a long-term ferment

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Suggestions needed for a long-term ferment

Postby Jojo on Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:51 pm

Prelude

Decades ago, a friend mused about how cool it'd be to make a barrel of whisky when their first kid was born, and to open it when they turned 21. When I had my first kid, I wanted to start this tradition, but recognized that making a barrel of whisky and carting it around with me for 21 years was simply not realistic. Based on a story about a Korean family tradition, I settled on making a Korean spicy bean paste. To keep this post reasonably short, let's just say that at least one container of this batch was absolutely delicious. I'm still waiting for him to grow up.

Problem statement

I just had another kid. And I've been trying hard to find a ferment that will work properly over the long term. The following conditions are likely necessary, but I'm open to discussion.
  1. It gets better over many years. 18 to 25 years is my ideal timeframe.
  2. It's not too huge, yet the final product should be substantial in its quantity (like a gallon or five).
  3. Anything fermented this long should be really, really flavorful. Something like a rich paste or sauce would make a lot of sense.
  4. It should be very stable once it gets going. I'm not going to check on this every week for 18 years. And having it die at year 8 would be crushing.
I won't go into details about everything I've researched and struggled with in this first post, because I'd like to hear your ideas. But I will say the best I've come up with is a barrel-aged vinegar (but that might violate #2 and #4, especially if re-kegging is required every year).

What are your thoughts? No bad ideas in brainstorming.
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Re: Suggestions needed for a long-term ferment

Postby irie1029 on Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:04 pm

One of my faves off the bat is black fermented garlic. BUT I have no idea how long it will last mine is going on 6 years and it may or may-not be really fermented. Along that same thought is Miso though I have only purchased true fermented and never made. I have a kefir cheese which is going on 1 year as well. Problem is kefir keeps changing and how well it will do in a decade I do not know.
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Re: Suggestions needed for a long-term ferment

Postby Zootal on Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:31 am

I think the problem with any ferment is that after a while, the micro organisms have consumed all that there is to consume, and it slows down and stabilizes and just sits there. Or it transitions from one phase to another, like alcoholic beverages turning to vinegar. Lacto fermented veggies get mushy or dissolve, leaving a fibrous shell behind. Miso will last for many many years, but in time the taste will degrade to the point it's not really edible. Alcoholic beverages eventually turn to vinegar. Fermenting just isn't a long term process. Some Miso, like hatcho miso, can go 3 years, but I think that' the upper limit. I understand what you are trying to do, and I've been thinking about this the last few days but nothing comes to me.

I wish I had put together a time capsule 25 years ago. I know my girls, now in their 20s, would be very interested to see what is inside of it.
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Re: Suggestions needed for a long-term ferment

Postby Christopher Weeks on Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:11 pm

I have garlic misozuke that's nine years old now and amazingly delicious. I suspect that it won't last 21 years because at the current age, it's sort of hard to determine the margin between the garlic and the miso.

How stable for #4? You don't want to mess with it every week but what about once per year? You could do balsamic, but it would be a substantial investment in space to set up an extensive solera. (I'm planning a hot sauce solera.)
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Re: Suggestions needed for a long-term ferment

Postby Jojo on Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:58 pm

irie1029 wrote:One of my faves off the bat is black fermented garlic.

Christopher Weeks wrote:I have garlic misozuke that's nine years old now and amazingly delicious.

That's a great idea! I also have one going, but I got the miso bed from a jar of garlic pickles I bought at The Cultured PIckle. I've had that bed going for several years now by stuffing more garlic into it, and I keep forgetting to take out the garlic. The last few times I've harvested it, it's seemed to plateau around 1 year, not getting any better. What are your experiences with that?

Zootal wrote:I think the problem with any ferment is that after a while, the micro organisms have consumed all that there is to consume, and it slows down and stabilizes and just sits there.

Yeah, for sure. That's my primary concern here too. The reason I made the bean paste for my firstborn was because I read an interview with Anthony Bourdain about a Korean shop in San Francisco that was run by a woman who made some paste 30 years prior (and every so often after that), and had various ages you could sample. It closed before I had a chance to try it, but it sounded like there was at least something that kept getting better. I don't know the processes involved, but I'd love to find out.

Christopher Weeks wrote:How stable for #4? You don't want to mess with it every week but what about once per year? You could do balsamic...

Indeed. A balsamic is made so by aging vinegar in barrels, right? I think there are two issues with this idea that make me nervous; first, the yearly maintenance and second, the seemingly high chance of screwing something up halfway through. What if I forget or just don't feel like going through the work one year? What if a new barrel isn't sanitized well? Also, I understand you give up some angels' share during the aging process, so I might have to start with a really large barrel (25 liters) to get 5 liters at the end? I don't know much at all about this.
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Re: Suggestions needed for a long-term ferment

Postby Christopher Weeks on Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:03 pm

First, I <3 the Cultured Pickle Shop. I make sure to stop in whenever I'm in the area (not often enough) and I wish they had kept their blog of several years ago going, it was awesome.

My misozuke experience is primarily using South River Miso's Azuki Bean miso because they sell it in buckets, not just little jars, and the miso I've made myself has been edible but a little sketchy. In my experience, garlic, after a year, hasn't really changed much at all. By three years, it has softened considerably and exchanged fluids and flavors with the miso bed. At five years, the edges of the garlic are quite pasty and getting them out as whole units, distinct from the miso, is a little bit impossible. By the time it's 7-9, it's more like there are blobs of miso-flavored garlic jelly surrounded by garlic-flavored miso. But it's wonderful. And I don't know what it's like at 21, but ask again in 12 years. :)

With regard to a balsamic, or something closely based on that, I'm not sure how much damage a little neglect would really do. If you imagine a solera of seven barrels, if one is somehow destroyed, you still have six of them full of nectar. I mean, if your house burns down, anything will be ruined. Angel's share is a thing, for sure. What I'd be doing in your situation is getting a set of smallish barrels -- as big and as many as you can handle, but not more than that. And I'd start the big one and keep decanting, once per year into the smaller ones and once you get to the point where you've had the smallest one full for a year, maybe empty 3/4 of it into a steel can and set that aside to receive 3/4 of it again next year and so on and so forth. You'd certainly want to research the process. Start here to get the basics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solera
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradition ... ic_Vinegar
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Re: Suggestions needed for a long-term ferment

Postby Jojo on Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:05 pm

Christopher Weeks wrote:First, I <3 the Cultured Pickle Shop.

Us too. We only get to go about once a year (if that), but we always stuff our suitcases full. They had a batch of Indian pickled lime that I tried to reproduce (semi-successfully) that was astoundingly delicious. And the kombucha blows my mind; I've never had anything better.

Christopher Weeks wrote:In my experience, garlic, after a year, hasn't really changed much at all.

Fascinating. I'll try to get photos of mine in the next few days. I've never waited long enough for it to turn to mush. It's usually almost completely black, reasonably firm, and really flavorful. If I'm not mistaken, I have a red and black miso that I should pull out. I'll let you know how it goes.

Christopher Weeks wrote:With regard to a balsamic...

Noted, thanks for the suggestion! I'll read up on it a bit. I've considered following the instructions in The Noma Guide to Fermentation but haven't researched more than that.
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